PRELIMINARY NOTES TOWARDS AN ACCOUNT OF THE “MOVEMENT OF POPULAR ASSEMBLIES”
The movement of the assemblies in the squares started completely unexpectedly on the 25th of May in Athens. It’s unclear which was the initial group of people that took the initiative to post a call for a rally in Syntagma square on Facebook to express their “indignation” and anger at the government’s austerity measures. It seems though that some people around a political group influenced by the later Castoriadis’ democratic ideology were involved among others in that initiative. The call was publicized favourably by the mass media and during the first days there was a reference in the media to a banner that allegedly appeared in the Spanish mobilizations: “Shhh, do not shout, we will wake up the Greeks” or something like that. Of course, no one could expect what would follow.
The initial call was a declaration of independence and separation from political parties, representation and ideologies. It also declared the will to protest peacefully against the state management of the debt crisis and “all those who led us here”. Furthermore, a main slogan was the call for a “real democracy”. The slogan of “real democracy” was quickly replaced after a couple of days by the slogan of “direct democracy”. The initial effort of the organizers to set a body of specific democratic rules for the assembly was rejected by the participants. However, certain regulations were established after some days concerning the time-limit of the speeches (90 sec), the way that someone can propose a subject for the discussion (in written form, two hours before the beginning of the assembly) and the way that speakers are being chosen (through a lottery).. We should also mention that around the core of the general assembly there are always plenty of discussions, events or even confrontations among the participants.
In the beginning there was a communal spirit in the first efforts at self-organizing the occupation of the square and officially political parties were not tolerated. However, the leftists and especially those coming from SYRIZA (Coalition of Radical Left) got quickly involved in the Syntagma assembly and took over important positions in the groups that were formed in order to run the occupation of Syntagma square, and, more specifically, in the group for “secretarial support” and the one responsible for “communication”. These two groups are the most important ones because they organize the agenda of the assemblies as well as the flow of the discussion. It must be noted that these people do not openly declare their political allegiance and appear as ‘individuals’. However, these politicos are unable to completely manipulate such a volatile and heterogeneous assembly since the delegitimization of the political parties is prevalent. It is very difficult to participate as an individual in these specific groups though, since you have to confront the shadow party mechanisms of the leftists.
The rallies organized on a daily basis gradually became very massive and expressed the complete delegitimization of the government and of the political system in general. In the most massive rally maybe 500.000 people participated (on Sunday 5/6).
The social composition of the mixed crowd that rallies everyday ranges from workers, unemployed, pensioners and students to small entrepreneurs or former small bosses hard hit by the crisis. In these rallies in the Syntagma square, a divide was formed from the first days between those who are “above” (near the Parliament) and those who are “below” (in the square proper). In the first category, some nationalist and extreme right-wing groups have been active from the beginning influencing the more conservative and/or less politicized people who participate in the demonstrations (being either proletarians or proletarianized former small entrepreneurs). It is quite common for most of them gathering outside the Parliament to wave Greek flags, make the open palm gesture against the MPs, cry out populist and nationalist slogans like “Traitors!” or “Thieves!” or even sing the national anthem. However, thefact that these people are more politically conservative does not necessarily mean that they are more controllable when the conflicts with the police escalate or that they can be counted to the lines of the organized extreme right-wing groups. On the other hand, the second group which forms the constituency of the assembly is much more oriented to the democratic left (patriotic, antifascist, anti-imperialist) as it can be seen by the voted communiqués (see http://real-democracy.gr) and is also proletarian in composition (unemployed workers, civil servants, university students, workers from the private sector, etc.)
The leftists have managed to organize a series of discussion events about the “debt crisis” and about “direct democracy” with invited speakers coming from the left academia (e.g. left political economists like Lapavitsas) who are connected to various left political parties (mainly SYRIZA and ANTARSYA). The organization of these events reproduces and reinforces the divide between “experts” and “non-experts” and the content of the presentations of the invited speakers has been centered on an alternative political and economic management of capitalist relations and the crisis. For example, the main views expressed with regard to the issue of debt vary from proposals for the “debt restructuring” and the cancellation of the “odious part of the debt” to calls for an immediate suspension of payments on the part of the Greek state or exit from the Euro-zone and the EU. In any case, the political content expressed in these events is that of an alternative and more patriotic path for the “development of the country” and the creation of a real social-democratic state. In other words, these events try to direct the discussions towards an alternative path for the reproduction of capitalist relations in Greece that will be implemented by a different government in which the leftists will have assumed the role they deserve… Occasionally there have been criticisms by participants in the assembly of the prominent role of experts in panels as well as of the conception of the debt as a logistical, national issue, however they have been too weak to change the whole direction. The most well-known proposal for a left management of the “national debt” is coming from the Greek Audit Commission which consists of various left politicians, academics and union bureaucrats and favours the idea of the cancellation of the “odious part of the debt” following the Equador model. This Commission’s presence was established in the square in the first days against voted resolutions for the exclusion of political parties and organizations with the pretext of being a “citizens’ association”!
Some of us have been involved in a thematic assembly that has been formed by the general assembly around the issues of labour and unemployment called Group of Workers and Unemployed. In cooperation with other comrades, this assembly has tried to promote the self-organized practice of the proletarian “suspension of payments” from below for the direct satisfaction of our needs. Of course, the latter is completely at odds with the left political proposals for the “suspension of payments of the sovereign debt”. Towards this aim some interventions in unemployment offices have been organized calling the unemployed workers to join the group in Syntagma square and attempting to initiate discussions aiming at the organization of local assemblies of unemployed workers (the latter aim was unfortunately not successful). Also 3 direct actions in the metro station of Syntagma square have been organized where, in cooperation with a collective that is already active on this issue, the so-called “I don’t pay” coalition of committees, the ticket validating machines were blocked. The leftists who participate in this assembly have tried to confine its activities to left political demands of “the right to work”, “full, decent and stable work for all”, etc. without any real interest to communicate their struggle experiences (if they had any) and engage in collective direct action. The results of this confrontation are depicted in the communiqué which was produced and is available in http://real-democracy.gr/en/node/159. But, the main problem is that apart from us, some anti-authoritarians/anarchists and the leftists, the participation of other people both in the discussions and the actions is almost non-existent, although the actions which were organized have been agreed upon by the general assembly.
This leads to another important observation about the assembly of the Syntagma square. Notwithstanding that the assembly has taken all these days decisions involving the organization of direct actions, in the end very few people really participate in them. It seems that the direct democratic process of just voting for or against a specific proposal in such a massive assembly tends to reproduce passivity and the role of the individualized spectator/voter.
This passivity and individualization of a significant part of the people was transcended on the day of the general strike (15/6) when the need to struggle against the attempts of the state to disband the demonstration and to reoccupy Syntagma square not only led practically to the participation of thousands of people in the conflicts with the police but also led to the expression of real solidarity between the demonstrators: people were freed from the hands of the cops by other protesters, the medical team helped anyone that was in danger because of the tear gas and the brutal strikes of the cops, the joyful dance of thousands of people amidst the tear gases, etc.
However, there were certain forces, i.e. the mass media, the left parties and the fascists, who tried to promote separations between the demonstrators around the issue of violence and through the accusation against some violent demonstrators of being instigated by police agent-provocateurs. When the anarchist/antiauthoritarian block and the blocks of the base unions arrived in Syntagma square and some of the comrades moved to the area in front of the parliament, a group of fascists exploited the throwing of a few (2-3) Molotov bombs by some individuals and started to shout through bullhorns to the demonstrators that the “kukuloforoi” (hooded persons) are undercover police provocateurs that should be isolated. This group started the attack against the anarchists/antiauthoritarians and managed to get other demonstrators involved in the attack as well. The anarchists/antiauthoritarians managed to face the attack and to respond successfully. However, the media exploited this incident by portraying it as an attack of the anarchists against the “indignants” (as the crowds demonstrating in the square are called) in order to promote the separation between “violent” and “peaceful” protesters within the movement. The video of this incident was played again and again for the rest of the day. However, on the level of street politics, this attempt was largely unsuccessful since when the police attacked later the demonstration they were confronted by a totally mixed crowd.
Apart from the media, the left parties tried as well to promote the separation between “violent” and “peaceful” protesters through their “provocateurology” and the continuous accusations and propaganda against the anarchist/antiauthoritarian milieu. Their aims are of course different: they want to restrain the movement to the limits of legality and peacefulness so that they will be able to capitalize on it politically according to their wishful thinking to participate in a future government that will follow an alternative left path for the development of Greek capitalism. We should add here that the Group of Workers and Unemployed of Syntagma square where some of us participate issued a resolution condemning provocateurology and false divisions within the movement but the text was never voted as a subject for discussion. This was the result of the leftist organizers’ intervention and manipulation combined with the weak support from other participants.
However, a lot of different views have been expressed concerning the issue of “provocateurology” and also the “violent or pacifist character of our movement”. The dynamic and contradictory character of the assembly can be traced to some of the assembly’s decisions two days before the 48-hour general strike on 28-29 of June. The left organizers managed to win a vote calling the police forces to “show respect to people’s will and the constitutional right of people’s sovereignty [...] and not to prevent the people from protecting its own Constitution”! At the same time, there was another resolution which condemned “the professionals of violence who serve the system and not the movement”, reflecting the leftist provocateurology against those who do not act according to the ideology of obedience to “law and order”. On the contrary, a day after, in another decision the assembly voted in favour of “those who clash with the repression forces. Nobody with a loudspeaker should speak against them”. On the same day, the proposal for “condemnation of any kind of violence during the coming 48-hour strike” was disapproved.
It must be noted that till now the “movement of the squares” has been really effective in the sense that it managed to widen the field of opposition to the government’s policy, something that the conventional general strikes and the isolated sectional strikes had not managed to do. It obliged the discredited GSEE to call for a 24-hour strike on the 15/6 and a 48-hour strike when the second “memorandum” was going to be voted and many workers took the opportunity to participate in the demos from morning till night. Although it did not manage to cancel the voting of the memorandum, it nonetheless managed to create a deep cabinet and political crisis. Never before, not even during the December 2008 riots, was the political system of representation so irretrievably delegitimised. However, the leftist organizers managed to preserve the mediatory role of unions -at least on an ideological level- through a common poster calling for the 48-hour general strike.
A first observation about this strike is that it’s impossible to make an accurate estimation of the number of people that took part in the events during these two days. There was a continuous inflow and outflow of people to and from the terrain of the struggle in the centre of Athens (i.e. the Syntagma square and the surrounding streets) and the number of demonstrators fluctuated from a few thousands to as many as 100.000 people. However, the participation in the strike, in the rally and in the conflicts was far lower on the first day than in the second day: the number of demonstrators in Syntagma square on Tuesday 28/6 did not exceed 20.000 people.1 Both days, fierce clashes took place between demonstrators and the riot police over a large part of the centre of the city around Syntagma square. Thousands of chemical weapons were thrown by the riot police creating a toxic and suffocating atmosphere. Certainly, in the second day, the mobilization was more intense and more massive.
According to the police, 131 cops were injured, 75 persons were busted and charges were pressed against 38 people. According to the medical team of the Syntagma square, more than 700 people had been provided with first aid at the improvised medical centres in the square and inside the metro station of Syntagma and around 100 were transferred to hospitals. There were damages on banks, ministry buildings, luxurious hotels, the post-office of Syntagma square and a few commercial shops and restaurants.
There is no doubt that from the beginning the aim of the state was to evacuate the square, to terrorize and disperse the demonstrators.2 However, the persistent and spirited stance of the demonstrators may be perfectly expressed by the slogan: “we won’t leave the square”. As a result, the confrontation with the police, material and verbal, was almost continuous. On the first day, most of the people were pushed further back in the streets surrounding the square, giving longer or shorter battles, until the police managed to create a cop-boundary around the square, preventing anyone from approaching. Despite that, a few hundreds remained in the square until late in the night.
On the second day, apart from the gathering in the Syntagma square, there were efforts to make blockades early in the morning in order to prevent the MP’s entrance into the parliament. This plan was voted by the Syntagma assembly as well as by the assemblies that have been formed in other neighbourhoods of Athens outside the centre. Unfortunately, only a few hundreds of demonstrators participated in those blockades which were immediately attacked fiercely, pushed away and quickly disbanded by the police. So, the plan to prevent politicians from getting into the parliament didn’t work. In the case of the blockade in Vasileos Konstantinou avenue, the demonstrators were pushed back to nearby streets were they erected barricades and after a few hours and some mild confrontations with the riot police they started a long demonstration that passed through the touristic parts of the centre to finally reach the big rally in Syntagma square. It must be noted that the organization of the blockades was totally inefficient since the leftist organizations that played an important role through their control of the main groups of the Syntagma assembly did nothing to ensure a greater participation and a real confrontation with the police. Of course, the leftists’ attitude is not an excuse for the inability of the assembly itself to implement its decisions and the passivity of a great part of its participants.
As far as the conflicts around the parliament are concerned, similar scenes of the first day took place on the second day as well but it was much more difficult for the police to accomplish its aims. Thousands of demonstrators participated in the clashes of the second day. Most of the demonstrators were prepared for the clashes wearing gas masks or other improvised protection equipment; many carried anti-acid solutions while some were fully equipped for fighting the cops. In most cases, there was a “front zone” where the battles evolved and a “rear zone” where people yelled slogans, gave help to those in need and even “provided” the “front zone” with new people.
The “peaceful people” backed those clashing with the police: the physical presence of the huge crowd itself was an obstacle to the maneuvers of the police. Protesters blocked a group of motorcycles of the police infamous “DIAS” and “DELTA” forces by standing in front of them while the policemen were ready to launch an attack. “Peaceful” protesters weren’t scared by the clashes and only the continuous massive and violent attacks of riot police and motorcycle police forced them to abandon the streets surrounding Syntagma. Contrary to what many were preaching during the previous days and especially during the clashes with the police on June 28th, the clashes didn’t “frighten” the “people” but in a sense these clashes expressed the accumulated anger against a largely delegitimized government, the brutality of the police and the worsening of the living conditions of the working class.
Especially this day, there reappeared the insurgents of December 2008 (anarchists, anti-authoritarians, students, ultras, young precarious proletarians) in the streets of Athens alongside a considerable part of the more “respectable” and stable working class that protested against the austerity measures clashing with the police. It was the first time after May 5, 2010 that such a thing happened.
The 48-hour general strike had another similarity with the December 2008 rebellion: playfulness. Many slogans or chants of the protesters against the government and the IMF are based on slogans or chants from the terrace culture while during the confrontations with the police drummers encouraged the protesters and incited them to keep their positions.
Both days, the police eventually “cleared” the surroundings and the central streets late at night, and only few determined ones remained in the square overnight.
The thousands of people that participated in the clashes and their diversity defied in practice the conspiracy theories of the left organizations/parties and the media about “provocateurs” or “para-statal gangs” and proved how ridiculous similar mainstream propaganda about those “specific” groups who always “create chaos” is. Many people realized the necessity of throwing stones, lighting fires and barricading streets against armed, furious and ruthless cops who execute the orders of capital and its state.
This change was also the result of the overcoming of the (usually verbal) confrontations between the “non-violent” and the “violent” protesters during the last month’s mobilizations. Many “non-violent” protesters, especially the elder ones, realized at last that behind the “masks” of the “provocateurs” were mostly common young people, filled with rage. In a case, a sixty-year lady was talking in a friendly way with a “masked” 16-year old about the “right to fight back the cops” while at the same time well-dressed “indignant” protesters were disputing with “rioters” on similar matters. In other cases, “non-violent” people with breathing problems were helped by well-prepared “masked” demonstrators. Violence is just one issue in the continuous social and political discussions and disputes that emerge inside the mobilized crowd and play an important role in the shaping up of the mobilizations and the contradictory attitudes of many demonstrators. We can say that these disputes create a limited proletarian public sphere where theoretical and practical issues are posed.
Another prominent feature of the days of rage was the combination of rioting and celebration. During the fights there was live music, people sang and, as we mentioned before, in some cases drum players accompanied counter-attacks against the riot squads! During the afternoon of the 28th a concert was given despite the fights and chemical gases and the protesters were dancing while the police was tear-gasing the square. Expropriations of pastries, cakes and ice creams from a chain café in the square gave the struggle a sweet flavour on the 29th, although the food supply group later condemned lootings from the loudspeakers, probably after having been scolded by some left “organizers”. Later that afternoon a big group mainly of SYRIZA members tried to prevent people from piling up stones to be used against a possible attack by the riot squads, however, having no alternative plan to face the attack, they soon gave up their effort. Shortly after, the microphone equipment with the loudspeakers was removed from the square on the pretext that they could get damaged. The choice to take away the “voice” of the mobilization at that particular time, when clashes with the police in the surroundings of the square were still raging, was clearly undermining the defense of the square. Some minutes later a lot of riot squads invaded the square and in a particularly violent sweep operation managed to disperse the crowd down the metro station. Only some hundreds would return again and even less stayed in the square until late in the night.
We should also mention that the feeling of rage against politicians and the police is really growing. Except for the widespread clashes, this rage is also reflected in the verbal condemnations that one can catch here and there: “we should burn the parliament”, “we should hang them high”, “we should take up arms”, “we should visit the MP’s homes” etc. It’s remarkable that most of these declarations come from elder people. Several cases of “arrests” of undercover cops by loads of people are also revealing of the degree of anger mounting: in the evening of the 29th demonstrators got hold of an undercover cop inside the Syntagma metro station trying to detain him when the Red Cross rescuers intervened and helped him escape (according to some rumours, he had no gun when he left…).
As far as the role of the unions (GSEE-ADEDY) is concerned, except for their call for the 48-hour strike, which was more or less a result of the pressure of the “square’s movement”, they didn’t really play any important role. It is characteristic that their blocks attracted only few hundreds and on the second day, when the new austerity package would be voted, GSEE arranged its rally late in the afternoon in another square of the city centre (which was just a short stroll towards Omonia square which is in the opposite direction!)! In addition, on 30th of June, GSEE, faithful to the conspiracy theories, published a press release which condemned “the destructions and the pre-decided riots between “hooded people” and the police who co-operate against the workers and the demonstrators […] GSEE condemns any kind of violence wherever it comes from and calls the government to assume its responsibilities…”. On the other hand, ADEDY kept a more cautious stance: in its press releases on the 29th and the 30th of June, it condemned the “barbarism of the government” and “the police brutality” against the demonstrators and it even called for a rally on the 30th June on Syntagma square which it never organized!
Some general points concerning the movement against the imposition of the harshest austerity measures since the 2nd World War:
1) Nationalism (mostly in a populist form) is dominant, favoured both by the various extreme right wing cliques as well as by left parties and leftists. Even for a lot of proletarians or petty-bourgeois hit by the crisis who are not affiliated with political parties, national identity appears as a last imaginary refuge when everything else is rapidly crumbling. Behind the slogans against the “foreign, sell out government” or for the “Salvation of the country”, “National sovereignty” and a “New Constitution” lies a deep feeling of fear and alienation to which the “national community” appears as a magical unifying solution. Class interests are often expressed in nationalist and racist terms producing a confused and explosive political cocktail.
2) The manipulation of the main assembly in Syntagma square (there are several others in various neighbourhoods of Athens and cities in Greece) by “incognito” members of left parties and organizations is evident and really obstructive in a class direction of the movement. However, due to the deep legitimization crisis of the political system of representation in general they, too, have to hide their political identity and keep a balance between a general, abstract talk about “self-determination”, “direct democracy”, “collective action”, “anti-racism”, “social change” etc on the one hand and extreme nationalism, thug-like behaviour of some extreme-right wing individuals participating in groups in the square on the other hand, and all this in a not so successful way.
3) A significant part of the antiauthoritarian milieu as well as a part of the left (especially the marxist-leninists and most of the trade unionists) keep their distance from the assembly or are openly hostile to it: the former accuse it mainly for showing tolerance towards the fascists in front of the parliament or the members of the defence group of the assembly and for being a petty bourgeois, reformist political body manipulated by certain left parties. The latter accuse it for being apolitical, hostile to the Left and the “unionized, organized labour movement”.
One thing is certain: this volatile, contradictory movement attracts the attention from all sides of the political spectrum and constitutes an expression of the crisis of class relations and politics in general. No other struggle has expressed itself in a more ambivalent and explosive way in the last decades. What the whole political spectrum finds disquieting in this assembly movement is that the mounting proletarian (and petit-bourgeois) anger and indignation is not expressed anymore through the mediation channels of the political parties and the unions. Thus, it is not so much controllable and it is potentially dangerous for the political and unionist representation system in general. Therefore, the role of provocateurology is crucial: it serves as an exorcism, a slander against a growing part of the population which exiled in the no man’s land of «parastatal activity» should be rendered inert. On another level, the multiform and open character of this movement puts on the agenda the issue of the self-organization of the struggle, even if the content of this struggle remains vague. The public debate on the nature of the debt is a thorny question since it could lead to a movement of “refusal of payments” to the Greek state (an issue well beyond the political horizon of the parties, the unions and the vast majority of the extra-parliamentary left, statist as it is). After the bloody voting of the Medium-term Programme is uncertain what direction the movement of the assemblies will take in an era where all certainties seem to melt in the air.
TPTG
11/7/2011
1 The fact that most of the people chose to strike on the 2nd day of the 48-hour general strike, when the “medium-term fiscal consolidation framework programme” was voted, emphatically revealed the ideological and deceptive character of the leftist calls for an indefinite general strike. The big reduction in the income and the resources of the workers combined with a full-fledged crisis of the unions make such a prospect totally impossible, at least in the short-term both on the objective and the subjective level. Therefore, the leftist calls for an indefinite general strike are devoid of any real content and are used as a pseudo-militant propaganda in order to hide their total inability and/or unwillingness to engage in the organization of relevant and practical direct actions promoting the proletarian “suspension of payments” from below. The cadres of all the leftist parties and groupuscules are much more keen on retaining their institutional positions in the various unions, associations and non-governmental organizations than promoting any real class antagonistic activity.
2 As it was revealed later in the media, this aim was planned and decided on a high-level conference of generals of the Greek police already on Tuesday and shows both the importance the government placed on the voting of the new austerity measures as well as the absurdity of the theory of the “provocation” of the cops through violence. Besides, from heated conversations between riot cops and demonstrators we can conclude that those squads must have had some kind of ideological training by government officials so that no moral doubts could stand in their way of executing orders: the dominant argument was that the majority of the demonstrators are “public servants who have lost their privileges”…
111 Comments
An excellent critique. It seems to me the priority is to combat the fascists and agents provocateurs and to give voice in the assemblies to the need and legitimacy of proletarian self-defence, to counter the leftist collaboration with police attacks…
A very interesting account by TPTG.
See also:
http://www.tapaidiatisgalarias.org
Incubus, you stupid fuck: Just in case you haven’t noticed, TPTG is explicitly criticizing the hysteria of about “agents provocateurs”. But maybe you are just an fascist internet agent with the mission to denounce the anarchists in Greece.
@ΠΡΟΛΕΤΑΡΙΟΣ-
No, YOU stupid fuck- can’t you read?-
“a group of fascists exploited the throwing of a few (2-3) Molotov bombs by some individuals and started to shout through bullhorns to the demonstrators that the “kukuloforoi” (hooded persons) are undercover police provocateurs that should be isolated. This group started the attack against the anarchists/antiauthoritarians ”
Crush the fascists and cop provocateurs and irradicate the problem. They exist and their prime purpose is to drive a wedge between the ‘indignants’ and the Black Bloc…I’m not denouncing anyone except the pigs, you fool.
The anarchists and other revolutionaries are the only provocateurs – long live the provocateurs! Fuck pacifism!
(Incubus, state agent – die, counter-revolutionary scum! Together with the undercover cops and fascists.)
@ ΠΡΟΛΕΤΑΡΙΟΣ -
You’re hilarious! I think Orwell called it doublethink…
I denounce the provocateurs and fascists and you accuse me of being one!, also the term ‘counter-revolutionary scum’ is a bit of a cliched give-away. Loving the way you’re seeking to ‘intoxicate’ the issue… I think you’ve been reading too much 60′s stuff during your research…
Raw nerve? Touched? Much? Ow!
If there is terrace culture why don’t they sell their teams to the rich clubs in europe?
Your manipulative comments on Occupied London are full of orwellian logic. You talk about so-called “provocateurs” – but you actually mean the anarchists, rioters and other fighters that don’t stand around and do nothing to fight the fucking cops – and no one else. This is part of your populist strategy to isolate the revolutionary elements in the struggle. So people like you are in a way a similar problem like the fascists, but we will know how to deal with it.
Again for you: die counter-revolutionary scum!
Where the fuck are all this “procateurs”? Tell us. You mean those who threw the molotovs!
The anarchists in Greece eat fuckers like Incubus alive for breakfast just for puking him out after that!
An interesting account for sure.
As far as the comments go, I don’t see that this aggressive approach to other people’s opinions and claims to a monopoly on the truth serves anything other than creating division in the movement. Surely the truth lies somewhere between the extremes of “all koukouloforoi are provocateurs” and “all koukouloforoi are pure-bred anarchists and anyone who says so is a sissy”, but it’s hard for anyone to identify exactly what and how because no-one can be everywhere, knowing everything.
Nevertheless, it should be evident that violent incidents of particular kinds and in particular place at particular times suits the agenda of the state and reactionary forces. Rather than being defensive or subversive, it places the situation directly into a context that the police, government and media can handle along well-established lines.
I’m not pretending to have any answers, but it seems foolish to deny any such possibility.
So … this term “provocateurology” is supposed to be shorthand for all the deliberately divisive rhetoric that always springs up around the issue of violence? (usually and specifically fighting off the riot pigs)
I like it! I’m so sick of arguing with moderates about how RARE provocateurs are (because they are). Everything is a god-damn conspiracy to these people.
Occam’s razor much?
don’t say sissy ya sucker, every 2nd girl in Greece is called Sissy, consumer idiot.
I think Incubus misunderstands the text and thinks that there were agent provocateurs who attacked the anarchists. Well Incubus let me explain to you what the writer meant. He means that the fascists claimed that the anarchists were agent-provocateurs and the they (THE FASCISTS) attacked the anarchists, which got succesfully countered by the anarchists.
Incubus is probably some dude from England jerking off to riot videos on youtube while the real men in Greece actually do the fighting.
Now watch him deconstruct my “real men” comment and call me a fascist.
Meh, so I misunderstood…Mea-fucking-Culpa, ooh, I made a mistake, I was tired from work, I’m not perfect unlike all those ‘Real Men’ in Greece (Delicious Bertie old chap, but you fundamentally answered your own abusive comment -my cock deep in your arse, up to the balls mmmm!).
Aside from the bloated ideological rhetoric, the ‘shock slogans and mindless token tantrums’, and the knee-jerk rants, who made ‘PROLETARIAN’
(ΠΡΟΛΕΤΑΡΙΟΣ) leader? (complete with his own paranoid conspiracy theory about me too) Doubtless this cretin thinks suppressing debate with threats is the way to a revolution- It is if you’re Blanquist dogshit- otherwise Not. I’m soooo not scared of your veiled threats and toytown death-squad mentality. I don’t have a “populist strategy to isolate the revolutionary elements in the struggle.”, but I presume your strategy is the opposite- an elitist one. How can a social revolution be anything but ‘popular’?
Riot Porn eh? Nah, mate, I have more faith in ordinary workers organising themselves autonomously, rather than a bunch of sub-cultural middle class student tossers ritualistically chucking a few mollies every six months…You ‘Riotologists’ all think you’re all so fucking ‘hard’- have you seen what’s going on in Syria? There, ‘Real Men’ torture 13yr old boys for Assad’s gratification, while masses of ‘real people’ fight for their lives and freedom. More deaths in one month than there have been in Greece for decades. Get some perspective you fuckheads.
At least I can admit to making an error, which is more than can be said for some of the commenters here- So, in advance of more abuse, I’d like to say “Fuck you very much!”
PS-
@solid_svejk-
You’re a mensch!
There is no misunderstanding. Again this human piece of shit Incubus is shitting his manipulative propaganda against the anarchists on this blog with denouncing them as “middle class students”. Come to Greece and tell this in their faces. You will travel back to the US (or whatever fucking country where you are from) inside a coffin. Incubus is to retarded to be a state agent. He is just fucking insane (just look at his conspiranoid comments about agents provocateurs!) and doesn’t understand anything about the situation in Greece.
Incubus spends 16 hours on pornographic sites each day (he calls this his “work”). This is a fact that might explain his rapist language.
I only like to rape real macho men. Hard. Fuck you very much!
And your mother.
I’m insane, I’m a fascist, I’m a state agent, I’m a ‘human piece of shit’, I’m American, I’m a porn addict , so many assumptions, such great reviews!
But seriously, can’t you make your mind up?
How many maoist-type denunciations can you concoct?
You should also be a ventriloquist- putting words into my mouth like that…
You naughty, naughty boy. Fuck you very much!
She dies years ago…you call that an insult.Pah.
I’ve looked deep into the face of death on many occasions. You are nothing. Fuck you very much!
If you come to Greece you will look into the face of death the last time.
Wrong again. I fear death as much as I fear your robotic dogma, you tinpot nihilist. Can’t you just say you want to attack me, kill me, too much of a coward to verbalise your fantasy, to be direct? Sad.
Fuck you very much!
From which madhouse do you send your paranoid messages into the world?
>She dies years ago…you call that an insult.Pah.<
Nekrofilos!
I only revolutionary action is to kill all cardrivers, pilots and other users of gas!
This discussion definetely needs moderation. All the above trollish vulgarities which are totally irrelevant with the content of the article should not be left unmoderated.
I WILL EAT GREECE ALIVE LIKE AN ANAL COKE PARTY
All the comment rubbish by Incubus should be exterminated.
Of course, what I should have said was-
“An excellent critique. It seems to me the priority is to combat the fascists and to give voice in the assemblies to the need and legitimacy of proletarian self-defence, to counter the leftist collaboration with police attacks…”
What a difference three words can make…
Go away and rape your dead mother.
people using the word “troll” in a negative way are just stupid computer nerds without brains that never read any book. may be my dog is a troll, may be my cat but not a useless comment.
they also think that inside the trojan horse were trojans. that’s why they call them trojans.
that’s the language of the machines.
hopefully the economy collapses totally and noone has money for electricity anymore.
may be some folks remember the eighties: there was more action on the streets with only 20% of the number of people who pose around nowadays and all these punx were trolls!
Is it not beyond the realm of possibility (especially with the proven record of fascists collaborating with cops) that the State is actively using fascists to accuse Anarchos, etc. of being provocateurs, in order to alienate the insurrectionists from the indignados in Syntagma? (As mentioned in the above account) Thus causing as much hysteria, confusion, suspicion and discord as possible? The aforementioned ‘provocateurology’ then becomes a twisted game of double-bluff, which the state, in the spirit of Machiavelli, has always skilfully employed.
In talking about how to combat this possibility, (because to me, fascists are provocateurs), I myself am subjected to the hysterical accusation of being a ‘state agent’, to adolescent abuse, threats of violence and an attempt to question my sanity, among other smears. More than that, opinions that I do not hold are attributed to me.
I find it interesting to see how quickly a rational debate can be destroyed by negative, destructive, and divisive input which claims to be the ‘true voice’ of the social antagonist movement in Greece…
Any abuse this comment receives will only prove my point…
Nous sommes le pouvoir.
Gegen Faschismus.
Omnia Sunt Communia.
For Social Revolution.
In Solidarity.
Incubus playing the harmless nice neighbor guy again with empty paroles about solidarity. That’s how we like him most. Really disgusting to see how insidious and hypocritical he can get just to change his little schizophrenic role here. Can’t wait until the next time he accuses anarchists of being undercover cops. The Greek streets will be more dangerous for him in the future…
Ink U Bus:
The term “provocateurs” is used against militants by the stalinists and other lefties in parliament.
Check topographics and then you will understand that it’s stupid to concentrate on Syndagma and stop speculating about participation of “insurrectionists”.
Obviously Incubus is not a state agent. He’s just some guy from England making posts on an anarchist site regarding Greece. Anyone who thinks otherwise is delusional.
Lets be honest here, there might be some people who are rioting who are actually cops. Maybe they are simply undercovers trying to do snatch jobs on anarchists. Maybe some of them are put there to “incite” problems (I doubt it, at least in Greece where there are already plenty of people who are already going to start problems). Maybe none of them are cops, and almost all the rioters are actually just citizens.
But Greece is different.
A lot of people are speculating that these “plants” are being used as an excuse to drive off the indignants. That is simply not the case. The government could care less if the indignants are there or not. The government will do what it wants to do, the people who zero input on that outcome. In fact, the government is probably much more scared of the rioters. The rioters cause social tension and drive off tourist money. The rioters create the perception of Greek instability. The rioters create a “negative” stigma of Greece of being a country out of control. As a result, I highly doubt that there is a big conspiracy involving provocateurs.
However, in places like Toronto and other European cities, G20 type events, there are a lot of police provocateurs. Why is this? Probably because the police are bored and want an excuse to crack some skulls. Have you ever been to Toronto? Place is boring as fuck. Oftentimes it boils down to the simple fact that cops want to let off some steam with violence. Sad, but that’s often the reality.
The cops can crack skulls and throw as much chemicals on demonstrations as they want even without “provocateurs”. Oftentimes it boils down to the simple fact that cops want to let off some steam with violence. Sad, but that’s often the reality.
PS- “Incubus is to retarded to be a state agent. He is just fucking insane (just look at his conspiranoid comments about agents provocateurs!) and doesn’t understand anything about the situation in Greece.” http://blog.occupiedlondon.org/2011/07/15/preliminary-notes-towards-an-account-of-the-%e2%80%9cmovement-of-popular-assemblies%e2%80%9d/#comment-17800
Brilliant account. Thanks so much.
Thanks for this account – really interesting and useful, and I hope we don’t spend all of the time discussing the silly topic of provocateurs, as it seems to me there are far more interesting things in this account. Though I do think the account of provocateurology and its function in preserving the role of leftists is well stated. Beyond that the question of the content of the struggle is an interesting one, and not in the sense of the “demands” that the leftists will insist on as content. This is a really useful contribution and I hope we get more regular updates. I’m certainly pretty interested in how far the austerity measures will go in destroying the really existing basis of social democracy in Greece, and how that would impact on the capacity of the leftists to continue to insist on “demands” on the state to “behave responsibly” or “do the right thing”…
Again – thanks for this account…
Last Point: Not once did I accuse actual Anarchists or insurrectionists of being ‘provocateurs’ or undercover cops.
Solidarity.
“ACTUAL Anarchists or insurrectionists”
Manipulative blog parasites like Incubus do not decide who is an actual anarchist or not!
Who here has been ‘manipulated’ by my opinions then? To do what precisely?
You manipulate what I say by putting your own spin on it. That much is obvious.
“However, there were certain forces, i.e. the mass media, the left parties and the fascists [AND INCUBUS], who tried to promote separations between the demonstrators around the issue of violence and through the accusation against some violent demonstrators of being instigated by police agent-provocateurs.”
Spurious alteration of the text. Surely you should include ALBERT and SVEJK above, if you’re going to accuse me of that. Besides, if I’m ‘insane’, ‘schitzophrenic’ etc. then I pose no threat as a ‘manipulator’.
Anyone remotely interested in your ongoing obsession with me, will read my previous posts to understand exactly what I meant…
Not once did I accuse Anarchists or insurrectionists of being ‘provocateurs’ or undercover cops.
I also argued for the “legitimacy of proletarian self-defence, to counter the leftist collaboration with police attacks…”
This all reminds me of the techniques employed by the FBI against activists in the ’60s, whereby the object is to discredit someone, through disinformation, defamatory remarks, smears, character assassination, intimidation and false accusations…It was called the COINTELPRO. Not that I’m saying you are an FBI agent, oh no, because you’d only accuse me of paranoia- which is what the FBI would say of their victims…
Again for those who can’t read:
“However, there were certain forces, i.e. the mass media, the left parties and the fascists [AND INCUBUS], who tried to promote separations between the demonstrators around the issue of violence and through the accusation against some violent demonstrators of being instigated by police agent-provocateurs.”
“discredit someone, through disinformation, defamatory remarks, smears, character assassination, intimidation and false accusations”
THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT INCUBUS IS DOING AGAINST THE ANARCHISTS IN GREECE.
….and the object of the exercise, ultimately was to ‘disrupt, destabilise and neutralise’ anyone the FBI perceived as a threat. But I’m crazy, aren’t I, so I can’t be one…
How?
@FBI-CIA-NSA-INCUBUS: ATHENS IS FROM NOW ON A DEATH ZONE FOR SCUM LIKE YOU.
“THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT INCUBUS IS DOING AGAINST THE ANARCHISTS IN GREECE.”-
How? How the hell can one person, on one blog, have an effect like that?
Who have I falsely accused, intimidated or defamed?
Again for those who can’t read:
“However, there were certain forces, i.e. the mass media, the left parties and the fascists [AND INCUBUS], who tried to promote separations between the demonstrators around the issue of violence and through the accusation against some violent demonstrators of being instigated by police agent-provocateurs.”
So now I am at the nexus of an entire web of security agencies?…But hold on, I thought I was the one suffering from paranoia?
PS-you forgot MI6, the BND and Mossad!
No you are just a disgusting piece of shit spamming around.
Repetition-very Goebbels. Very old hat.
Back to verbal abuse, not very original.
“Repetition-very Goebbels. Very old hat.”
Good point, nazifascist!
Again for those who can’t read:
“However, there were certain forces, i.e. the mass media, the left parties and the fascists [AND INCUBUS], who tried to promote separations between the demonstrators around the issue of violence and through the accusation against some violent demonstrators of being instigated by police agent-provocateurs.”
You seem incapable of answering any points I make, why is that? You obviously have a modicum of intellectual ability, but seem to shy away from the dialectical.
Now I’m a ‘nazifascist’ too, this really won’t do, you don’t seem too firm in your ideas about me..and yet you are pretty consistant in wanting to smear me, despite what I’ve stated…
I don’t discuss with nazifascists that are masquerading themselves as a sort of naive lefties. Athens=Death Zone for you.
I fought the BNP, C18 and Blood and Honour at the Battle of Waterloo Station in ’92, and my old man fought the Nazis during the war-killed with his bare hands too, even though he was in the Navy… so, No, no nazi me.
Deathzone? Is that a videogame you play?
Boring… another message from the madhouse. Again for those who can’t read:
“However, there were certain forces, i.e. the mass media, the left parties and the fascists [AND INCUBUS], who tried to promote separations between the demonstrators around the issue of violence and through the accusation against some violent demonstrators of being instigated by police agent-provocateurs.”
“Deathzone? Is that a videogame you play?”
No, thats where some angry proletarians break your bones.
“and my old man fought WITH the Nazis during the war”
yeah, thats what i expected…
Oh dear you’ve tried to offend me -and failed.
I’m so glad the angry proletarians of Athens elected you as spokesperson! Gosh. That’s the intimidation bit right there.
Come to to my city, it has the same population as the whole of Greece, and people here offer you violence without political strings!
“I fought the BNP, C18 and Blood and Honour at the Battle of Waterloo Station in ’92″
Incubus threw flowers at them.
Nah, stomped some of the motherfuckers good and proper. Kicked the shit out of them. Only reasonable way to deal with nazis.
The proletarians who are revolutionaries don’t elect because they aren’t democrats. They just get rid of disinformants like incubus.
“Nah, stomped some of the motherfuckers good and proper. Kicked the shit out of them.”
No one is interested in your lies.
“Only reasonable way to deal with nazis.”
Including you!
You’re boring me, and everyone else, now sunshine. Let it all get too personal eh? Never mind, we all make mistakes. Carry on writing your bollocks. Happy Holidays.
Die fascist scum!
PS- “However, there were certain forces, i.e. the mass media, the left parties and the fascists [AND INCUBUS], who tried to promote separations between the demonstrators around the issue of violence and through the accusation against some violent demonstrators of being instigated by police agent-provocateurs.”
Ok, you kids. Give it a rest. Honestly, all the comments in this section should just be deleted. What a waste of bandwith.
like ‘thieves’ ” c’mon give me a break
http://www.grreporter.info/en/priest_discontent_and%E2%80%A6revolution/4846
Please, stop this. There is a very nice account by TPTG, and the only thing you are talking about is if incubus is an agent or not. He just disagrees with violent actions, and thinks that anyone who fights with the occupation forces of the riot police is a policaman. This assumption is totally wrong of course, and the only thing it does, is that it helps to spread hate between demonstrators. But there is no reason continuing the conversation.
sorry for my poor english.
http://www.keeptalkinggreece.com/2011/07/20/126-citizens-filed-law-suit-against-greek-police-ministers/
@kadahar-
Wrong on both counts, and no I’m not a fucking ‘agent’. Read older posts for the truth.
I’ve got the solution: Incubus is a cop provocateur from the internet department of the police calling violent protesters >provocateurs< although they don't use any in Greece just to create separations and divisions between them. To avoid any suspicions against himself he claims to support everyone, including the violent protesters.
Incubus is just a gibbering computer program. A very stupid one.
“Everywhere that the State is to be found, there are the cops. Everywhere that cops are to be found…there too, is the State or its ghosts”
Raoul Vaneigem
‘Contibutions to the Revolutionary Struggle’ 1974.
What an illuminating self-critique of Incubus.
“Everywhere that the State is to be found, there are the cops [LIKE INCUBUS]. Everywhere that cops [LIKE INCUBUS] are to be found…there too, is the State or its ghosts [LIKE INCUBUS]”
Raoul Vaneigem
‘Contibutions to the Revolutionary Struggle’ 1974.
The 25 rules of disinformation.
2. Become incredulous and indignant. Avoid discussing key issues and instead focus on side issues which can be used show the topic as being critical of some otherwise sacrosanct group or theme. This is also known as the “How dare you!” gambit.
3. Create rumor mongers. Avoid discussing issues by describing all charges, regardless of venue or evidence, as mere rumors and wild accusations. Other derogatory terms mutually exclusive of truth may work as well. This method works especially well with a silent press, because the only way the public can learn of the facts are through such “arguable rumors”. If you can associate the material with the Internet, use this fact to certify it a “wild rumor” which can have no basis in fact.
4. Use a straw man. Find or create a seeming element of your opponent’s argument which you can easily knock down to make yourself look good and the opponent to look bad. Either make up an issue you may safely imply exists based on your interpretation of the opponent/opponent arguments/situation, or select the weakest aspect of the weakest charges. Amplify their significance and destroy them in a way which appears to debunk all the charges, real and fabricated alike, while actually avoiding discussion of the real issues.
5. Sidetrack opponents with name calling and ridicule. This is also known as the primary attack the messenger ploy, though other methods qualify as variants of that approach. Associate opponents with unpopular titles such as “kooks”, “right-wing”, “liberal”, “left-wing”, “terrorists”, “conspiracy buffs”, “radicals”, “militia”, “racists”, “religious fanatics”, “sexual deviates”, and so forth. This makes others shrink from support out of fear of gaining the same label, and you avoid dealing with issues.
6. Hit and Run. In any public forum, make a brief attack of your opponent or the opponent position and then scamper off before an answer can be fielded, or simply ignore any answer. This works extremely well in Internet and letters-to-the-editor environments where a steady stream of new identities can be called upon without having to explain criticism reasoning — simply make an accusation or other attack, never discussing issues, and never answering any subsequent response, for that would dignify the opponent’s viewpoint.
7. Question motives. Twist or amplify any fact which could so taken to imply that the opponent operates out of a hidden personal agenda or other bias. This avoids discussing issues and forces the accuser on the defensive.
8. Invoke authority. Claim for yourself or associate yourself with authority and present your argument with enough “jargon” and “minutiae” to illustrate you are “one who knows”, and simply say it isn’t so without discussing issues or demonstrating concretely why or citing sources.
9. Play Dumb. No matter what evidence or logical argument is offered, avoid discussing issues with denial they have any credibility, make any sense, provide any proof, contain or make a point, have logic, or support a conclusion. Mix well for maximum effect.
In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.
Hahaha, and another good (self-)description of Incubus’ pathological behaviour, tactics and manipulations. Please continue with your narcissist public one-man-show! Just hoping that this idiot does not start to discuss the content of the text.
So far there came nothing from him except big stories about provocateurs, his fucking family, nazis, syria, the fbi and coitelpro.
What he likes most:
>Meh, so I misunderstood…Mea-fucking-Culpa, ooh, I made a mistake, I was tired from work, I’m not perfect unlike all those ‘Real Men’ in Greece (Delicious Bertie old chap, but you fundamentally answered your own abusive comment -my cock deep in your arse, up to the balls mmmm!).<
This “discussion” should, as someone said earlier on, have been moderated – ΠΡΟΛΕΤΑΡΙΟΣ particularly is out of order. Death threats for someone who worded his post badly, and is undoubtedly a bit confused – but death threats??? for fucks sake….!!!!
Is it possible to change the subject a bit?
This text was originally put out on libcom:
http://libcom.org/blog/preliminary-notes-towards-account-movement-popular-assemblies-13072011
There someone’s put up something that has nothing to do with this dreadful “discussion”. Firstly it quotes the article
“rage is also reflected in the verbal condemnations that one can catch here and there: “we should burn parliament”, “we should hang them high”, “we should take up arms”, “we should visit the MP’s homes” etc. It’s remarkable that most of these declarations come from elderly people”
And responds to it with this:
“Not so remarkable really: the elderly have usually struggled most of their lives and partly looked towards their retirement as a time when they could give up this struggle for survival, a time of rest. Now they are faced with an indefinite future of survival hassles. Plus their kids and grandkids, which have given them a great deal of meaning to their lives, face a horrendous world, and they are often prepared to get furious about this futureless future precisely because they are responsible, directly or indirectly, for bringing their kids/grandkids into this futureless world. At the same time, when you’re three quarters or at most two thirds of the way through your possible life, you begin to not give a shit – you know you feel more youthful by getting furious with the bastards and you often care less about the personal consequences.
Also, you can usually get away more with this anger: a few years’ back, in the second half of the ’90s (don’t have the precise date) about 10 pensioners blocked the Humber Bridge for a few hours in a protest about pensions. At that time, the cops didn’t feel able to do much against them (nowadays, I suspect, many young cops in the UK are so degraded that they couldn’t give a shit about hurting them; probably in Greece, with the relentless class struggle over the past few years, and even before, I’d guess there’s still some kind of traditional respect for the elderly, though maybe I’m wrong…).”
Any takes on this? Or on any other aspect of this movement? Does anyone have anything to say about how this might influence developments in Portugal, where they are also threatening similar austerity attacks (they’re obviously doing this everywhere, but it seems Portugal, where unlike in Greece, the class struggle since the 70s has been pretty low level, they’re threatening to impose Greek-levels of cuts…). Any takes on strikes movements in Greece, outside the 48 hour general strikes at the end of June? The taxi drivers strike, for instance?
I’m trying to change the subject because almost 90 comments which amount to a waste of (misdirected) anger, brain and space has diverted concentrating on more interesting matters.
Jack although I am sure you mean well, with your attempt to tranquilize the situation by diverting to more interesting matters, you’re probably aren’t grasping the full context of our struggle where all our brains are consumed with for now is the attendance urgently needed right here on this board, figuring out how to stop the treacherous machiavellian MI5 intrigant, from his continuous intrusive obsessive harassments, in apparent self-righteous justification determined to demean, ridicule & trivialize the seriousness on this news site by confiscating it as his own personal daily chatbox & message board. Just flip black the pages of the last two years or so and you’ll see what I mean. He really is a piece of work you know. A Greek movement should be edified against the relentless siege by which he seized this page under a constant barrage of superfluous off-topic, unnewsworthy, news distorting, provocateur, populist self-propaganda, and that is really now the most prevalent issue on our minds. Forget about the revolution and everything else. This is henceforth top priority, public archenemy number one. No sanctuary for the redcoat counter intelligence subterfuge!
Pios eine masi mou pedia? (Whose with me guys?)
Thank you for this account. Very informative for those of us who are overseas and following the struggle.
Regarding the excessive comment battle- the clash of egos is worthy of a rupert murdoch “news of the world” cover story. Shameful. Please stop wasting other readers time.
MI5 Incubus is most unpopular person in Exarcheia together with MAT, pig Korkoneas and Papandreou.
What are you implying exactly Magdalene?
Cause by my count, 32 Incubus comments against my single one. It seems to me I am not the one that should be addressed, to shame myself, just check the site’s history record, on which I am only sporadically present, while the notifications daily broadcasting his polarizing discriminatory formalistic denominational inflammatory word games are as much as omnipresent, and despite you dare to somehow allege my involvement in a battle of the egos?
See what I mean people, whenever we reproach the British operative, all of sudden unheard of strawmen will surface, as Svev, Albert, or Magdalena, to mitigate the prosecution against him. Who seemingly uncritical, oblivious and further unwilling to investigate the spelled out indictments, and undone from sensible judgment rush to the cause of his defense? Which if you track back the site calendar is an indicatively repeating pattern, he even notes himself that putting up strawman as a principle of conduct in rule #4 of his disinformation treatment, that he unvariably deploys against us and knows by the letter.
It’s only realistically to speculate that these are ghost clients, accomplices whether remote controlled bots, that he activates on too much negative rumors airing, to keep an appearance that is presence is somehow an acceptable nuisance, and because others reasonless disagree, the frustration we experience is only a figment of our intolerable minds.
This is a classic ploy in cyops where the objective of counter intelligence programs is in essence, to cause discordance, friction & chaos, to dilute the news under tons of garbage, to deceive the spectator in subsidiary narrative forming, and the best way to accomplish such, is simply by permanently occupying an authoritative position on the site.
Some here may actually be conned to think like I was once, that he’s some English anarchists kid doing this for his own egomania, but don’t be fooled for he isn’t, although I suppose he’s British, he’s actually an intellectual grown up being payed to intervene on this web-site. And he definitely ain’t an anarchist.
I am positive on this because since one time more than a year ago, when I came across his indefatigable commentaries seemingly eager to chat, I approached him with a substantial article, I believe some 10.000 symbols. His short dreamy poetical retort of about 5 sentences thereupon immediately deflected the key issues, not in any way passable as a sincere compliant reaction in reference to my statements. In fact he ridiculed me in suggesting dreaminess on my part.
Subsequently I wrote another, less voluminous, yet still substantial response on his post, that he impolitely answered by the brush off, of ‘Blah, blah, blah’.
Whilst obviously reckoning by the overabundant amount of comments that are possibly running in the thousands, constantly on the site debating, arguing, conferring, with others, I found it weird that of all people, singularly appointing comparably relevant points of discussion, in articulated and vocabulary rich content, my attempt for discourse was for some reason singled out exempt from a decent rejoinder.
Today of course, it’s patent,as he reveals himself in his article on counter intelligence, that all these evasions as avoiding key matters in discussion, focus sliding by deflection, invoking authority by ‘jargon’and ‘minutiae’, or downplaying arguments by ridiculing, apparently according his statements, are cointelpro disciplines, that he mind you played on me, already more than a year ago, for no other thinkable reason, than conveying a substantive, sensible, coherent edification to open up a dialogue, that he after all on a daily basis engages in excursus.
In fact when retrieving his post throughout, it’s quite salient that he regularly spreads borrowed strategies from his holy manual of how to deceive people practically by any chance he gets.
This is naturally suspicious for why would someone systematically employ tactics of manipulation in casual conversations, and more pointedly, why should we put up with such indoctrination, daily notably prominently present, exerting in for whatever unfathomable obscured reason involved, with intentionally playing with our minds?
Otherwise let’s not forget, that the excessive attendance appearing in as much as on any commentary box, is by itself an irregular conspicuous behavior, that marks the attention and either way highjacks the informative effort here on this board. To exemplify by my own experience, while I actually come on this site to be informed, I somehow are more curious to what’s going on in the comment box, and usually go straight for Incubus’s talk forum. See this is how disinformation operates to deal with information.
Through certain interjecting trolls and his own comments, we are lead to believe he’s a student living in the U.K. but credible evidence to that effect we have none. Psychoanalysis of his scripting might corroborate this inclination, and we may surmise some sort of neurological compulsion driving him to this obsessive activity of plastering the walls here with his endless stream of daily rubbish. But now really I don’t think I buy it. Because he’s simply rather too clever, to be spending almost full time to a virtually unprofitable, unreasonable, and actually for most people here bothering contribution to the revolution, that would he actually support it, he should know better than to be harassing the news flow.
It’s just so easy to be duped, and declare someone ‘s motivations on their presumed flaws, whilst in every action they engage, it’s clear that they actually aren’t as incapacitated as surmised, and evidently they seem exactly to know what they are doing.
This is my point, because we’re coaxed into thinking he’s just a pathetic, mentally disturbed kid, so forth the case is legitimized that by custom human propriety, we should just give him the benefit of the doubt, and hence undisturbed let him brutalize our news source in inexorable onslaught of news distracting material spun by his own devious mind, because after all he can’t help himself cause HE’S JUST CRAZY?
I can’t even understand how the one’s, managing this site, are visibly ignorant that he is pawn placed by the bankers, to disorganize, distort, distract, polarize, I mean c’mon folks, are you perhaps crazy? Or am I?
WAKE UP GUYS!
LET ME BREAK YOU THE GRAVITY OF THE MATTER;
GREECE IS UNDER SIEGE BY THE BANKS! ……….. IF YOU RECALL?
YOU ARE ON THE FOREFRONT OF THE REVOLUTION!
THIS WEBSITE WAS AND STILL REMAINS THE MAIN INDEPENDENT INTERNATIONAL OUTLET FOR NEWS FROM THE SITUATION THERE!
AND HE’S JUST AN ANNOYING BRAINSICK KID???
THAT JUST ACCIDENTALLY HAPPENED TO COME BY????
JUST FOR THE FUN OF IT SPOILING ALL THE NEWS??????
Come on just give me a reality check here will you.
Say please, what is this revolution coming to?
Looks like nothing happened: No ca. 100 demos and scuffles close to politician homes and direct action against these swine, no militant AND indefined cabbie strike with blockades of harbours and airports, no clashes with cops, no burning cab. Just nothing happened because their fight is a proletarian fight!
You are a troll because you use the word “troll”, computer-scum-enemy-language
Johnny’s numbers and facts don’t add up. No persuasive argument is offered. Incubus can be accused of poor writing, being too easily provoked and confused terminology, but it makes no sense to argue that he has posted information on techniques in disinformation that expose himself. To believe otherwise is to fall into a deep abyss of paranoia.
i agree with objectivity and add: anti-politics! politics is just a structure
of the swine to canalize resistance into compromise….
destroy systems by ignorance
SQUAT ELITE SHOE FACTORY like the 200 ocupied factories in argentina
kali nichta
i.i.
INCUBUS IS A COMRADE
skarzze malaka
post #1000 end of thread
please update us about the cabiies strike!!!
Johnny, judging from his posts here (not seen any others as i’ve only recently started posting on this site) seems to fit the delerious “derailer planted by MI5 ” description slightly more than Incubus, considering he’s been spending so much time and energy on his somewhat long-winded, short of content and evidence and over-contrived rhetoric – but I don’t care either way. Not worth dwelling on here. If someone wants to start a thread “Are Incubus or Johnny working for the IMF?” maybe the admin here will let them, and all these pointless comments can develop on that thread.( btw, I don’t believe for one moment that either of the two posters have been planted by some faction of the enemy at all). People troll or derail or stop the deveopment of interesting discussion only if others let them.
Seems to me that the deveopment of a revolutionary breakdown in hierarchical social relations and in the separations that are an essential part of these relations is not only dependent on international contestation breaking out in ever increasing areas of the world (the current tent cities and demos against high rents in Israel, despite their obvious contradictions, is just one interesting development amongst hundreds) and not just dependent on individuals, anarchist or otherwise, questioning the ideological and characterological barriers in themselves to overcoming these separations, but also on:
a qualitative and quantitative extension of assemblies to neighbourhoods and other towns and villages in Greece;
their extension to workplaces, universities, schools, cinemas, theatres, circuses, etc
the content of such assemblies touching on practical ways of dealing with sabotaging water/gas/electricity meters, neighbourhood watch schmes against cops, collaborators and bailiffs and other IMF agents, as well as explicit opposition to the leftists and other manipulators, and to the illusions fostered by reformist solutions;
developing contact and communication between strikers and the more marginal sections of the proletariat – squatters, “rioters”, doleys…This would include initially talking , and maybe later going beyond talk, with striking taxi drivers – their burning of a taxi was an implicit recognition of the proletarianisation of their previously de facto “petit bourgeois” position and is a factor in the increasing proletarianisation of all the “petit-bourgeoisie”, whilst at the same time increasing amounts of proletarians are going to be forced into marginal “petit-bourgeois” methods of survival, buying/stealing and selling in flea markets or car boot sales or whatever the Greek equivalent is, that is until the abolition of money. Now of course, this latter is not on the cards immediately, but I imagine there’ll have to be a growth of a parallel economy involving giving and taking as part of a movement of solidarity whilst at the same time money is still going to have to be used….
Well, these are questions (and probably you can think of a lot more) far more useful to look at (though for the most part, in practice and not so much on these forums) than who said what about who and when and how, which is an implosion of discusssion rather than an expansion of it.
As if this seemingly unilateral show of defiance raises anything but a paper tiger, that as a matter of fact, only affirms exactly the incipiently stated supposition, according which I stated that ‘whenever we reproach the British operative, all of sudden unheard strawmen will surface, to mitigate the prosecution against him. Who seemingly uncritical, oblivious and further unwilling to investigate the spelled out indictments, rush undone from sensible judgment to the cause of his defense.’ And another transparent ploy to deceive the general public opinion, which can be easily penetrated by retrieval of the site’s history, in which going back us far as January this year, except for Jack Common, none other of the appropriated handles veritably checks out as an actual interacting client, and not only that but “Scarce Malaka”, that purports by a notation of ‘Kali Nichta’ and it’s handle to be of Greek decent, actually uses a perceptibly misspelled, pronunciation of ‘Skase’ the Greek equivalent of ‘Shut Up’, and ‘Scarzze’ is for all I know, not even a Greek term. Who knows what it means and how it appends?
In regard to the hypothesis by which the handle OBJECTIVITY presumes that disclosing one’s agenda seem incoherent, a quite expected counter proposition btw, that so on presumably advocates for his innocence, is however a suggestively invoked plausibility, that could be easily opposed, by the even so subjective antithesis, that such could hence well be just the ideal pretext to neutralize the alleged cointelpro connection, that mind you, by the afore statements, others (particularly real Greeks) already alleged this prior to my post and his revelation of the 25 rules of disinformation only after which I interjected.
And according the one that didn’t even bothered to file a bonafide unique name. Because I referred to the fact that ‘certain trolls’ casually spilled info to incrementally build his alias, which is simply a fact, that somehow for that unreasonable reason deserves the classification as a troll? Well if that isn’t a splendid example of consensus cracking by a tangibly weak premise as a misleading rational for fault deflecting by counter allegement and stigmatization with derogatory formalisms, then what is?
But you know what, let him win in the perverted twisted game that he’s playing on your expense and see if I care, after all I ain’t the one deprived of all my invested time & effort, and hence it’s not my call, to sanitize the infestation of an absolutely compromised newsmedium and save it from it’s mismanagement. Actually, although the initial ingenuity of his undercover cloak & dagger repertoire on which he successfully managed to prosper hereunto, is patently, gradually depleting in vapid routine & uninventive triviality, I am ironically enough ostensibly still the only one on this board who truly appreciates the refined deployed methods of intercepting information in which he persists as a lively object of study in how counter intelligence mercenaries operate, so please by all means leave him be, after all he’s only a craze suffering from a rare syndrom unintelligent ingeniousness that compels to wasting his talents for a virtually unreasonable & unprofitable cause, that so happens to substitute the news for a sensational narrative of unfettered self-propaganda and so what? What’s wrong with that? Who cares anyway, after all it’s only the revolution, itself a fallacious, deceptive, artificial ideologic construct, from A to O contrived, instigated & managed by the corporotocracy, so whatever, carry on dudes and imaginary Incubus crowd. But don’t press your luck buddy cause your scam is notably starting to crack up in complacency.
QUOTE:-
“a virtually unreasonable & unprofitable cause”
“it’s only the revolution, itself a fallacious, deceptive, artificial ideologic construct, from A to O contrived, instigated & managed by the
corporotocracy”
?????????????????????????????????????????
Johnny – do you have anything to say about Greece?
@JohnnyParanoid:
when a huge greek chain-dog is barking at you and you haven’t seen it coming ya will bark back excactly with “scarzze malaka!”, hahaha he will shut up and may be let you even know if he gots enough water or if ya need to kill his owner.
and as this is an international site it would be nice to keep student and complicated intellectual “english” away from this blog…
@Jack Common: you got some misunderstandings with you. the “petit bourgois” taxidrivers were never making big money and their participation in the struggles of the greek working class have a long history! their actual struggle started not against the measures in general, they already striked against in the past, but because the ministry was ignoring last year’s compromise! means: is anybody of the commenters reading the linked (updating from Greeeeeeece!) articles? looks like: nope!
also: the neighborhood-assemblies have their own history and it’s a funny idea to bring them back from the squares to the borroughs as their existance are the roots of the 500.000 on syndagma: BECAUSE the practice of the assemblies in Greece reminds of Machnowina! All the shit you ask for is already happening.
here in the comments are just some fans who project their own wishes into the greek revolt instead of fighting back home and most of the revolters won’t read it anyway. and the speculations about who is Incubus have only one aim: to force a comrade to say his real name and after Incubus will follow the others who may be are responsible that some “greek ideas” get spread! and therefore: SCARZZE MALAKA!
All this shit happens massive since this blog published a book and writes in real newspapers and i doubt that the guardian or al jazzera is anarchist!
“scarzze” is greek roma dialect, “scáse” is greek?
This blog has become a gut blocked by an enormous lump of shit (this thread), made up of many little shits- it badly needs flushing out…
Not my lingo -
Fair enough comments (for the most part). I have been trying to do things here in my locality (part of France) but getting past people’s endless desires to talk without consequence is not easy. I suspect that autumn will see some changes though…
Remember “Heimat-Los”? Heimat-Los is now contra-info! sum thoughts about solidarity:
It’s a really difficult shit to even try to keep people informed and the funny thing is that allthough with modern tools it is simplier today, one is not reaching more people: Noone reads indymedia or prints it out and brings it to the streets. Here is the “greek revolt” in german (mostly) on a site that allows a few languages:
http://linksunten.indymedia.org/de/node/42300
Solidarity action one can read on “act for freedom” but the people in whose cities the action happened often don’t know nothing about: It’s like a virtual molotof mirror…
Sumtimes it looks like the anti-hellenist propaganda (worked out by journalists who all were warned about Goebbels and now use him) got more influence on leftists/punks/anarchists than on ordinary people. That would give the perspective: Get out of the scene! Also it’s interesting that this propaganda didn’t reach the fascists until now as it is obvious that they and some idiots were the aim: Haven’t heard of any greek restaurants that got attacked. And when the Greeks are forced to come into the workplaces of Europe they all must tell their new colleagues about what really happened to funky more open ears one might think…
-αναρχικοί
Fear of being viciously attacked for freely voicing your opinion now stalks this blog, and sadly, that is the failing of ADMIN, who have not applied their own policy.
Hello from a completely random visitor.
I just want to say that i cannot understand why the above kind of “discussion” is allowed to exist on a website like this, that supposedly has some serious purpose. Whoever is supposed to moderate here, please delete the whole fucking comment section. I promise to light a candle as a show of condoleance for the few genuinely intelligent comments that will end up as collateral damage.
Most of the comments that even /try/ to be intelligent fail, due to making idiotic strawman assumptions about other posters’ viewpoints, and/or using too convoluted expressions to be understood right by anyone else than the one who wrote them. Some of these comments have some actual content somewhere in the mess, but that content is half lost already anyway, so it’s not so tragic collateral damage.
People here seriously need to learn to read what the poster they are responding to writes. People here seriously need to learn the meaning of good faith, and to adopt it as the basis of debate. People here seriously need to learn to focus on the subject and not on their egos. People here seriously need to learn that witty irony, or wit-free fucking-around humour as the case might be, is waste of space/breath in 99,9% of cases. That waste of space/breath is Ok e.g. on websites devoted solely to providing no-lifes with virtual so-called fun (4chan etc.), but it’s fucking out of place in the comment sections of thoughtful pieces of analysis on important issues.
The article was interesting.
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